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Joe Rogan Experience #2554 - Carlo Rovelli – Transcript
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- Carlo Rovelli describes his work as a physicist focusing on quantum gravity and theoretical physics.
- Carlo Rovelli explains that time is not a universal common time because gravity causes it to pass differently depending on altitude.
- Carlo Rovelli compares knowing the fundamental equations of physics to knowing the basic rules of chess.
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Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> Very nice to meet you. >> Joe Rogan. I'm very happy. Thank you very much for inviting this invitation.
>> I'm happy to talk to you. I've uh enjoyed your work. So, this is very exciting for me. >> Oh, fantastic. >> I've heard many conversations with you. I uh How do First of all, please tell everybody what you do. >> What do I do? >> Yes. I should probably start more podcasts out this way.
>> Uh, I do science, I do philosophy, I do some politics, I enjoy life, I fall in love, I do all things, life, all kind of things. Yes. >> Officially my job description is a physicist. I do quantum gravity, theoretical physics.
>> And um, the pitch that they sent me uh, I guess >> who's >> the I don't know who the publicists are. >> Okay. uh on the equality of all things. >> Oh, the book. That's the last book I I published. I I'm going to publish. It's coming out in a few days.
>> Yeah. It comes out September 15th. And what what are we at today? Today is the 8th. >> Yeah. >> Um this is a a very fascinating subject. You you're you're talking about that things don't exist in isolation. Yeah.
That everything is somehow connected. >> Yeah. which I've always sort of int intuitively suspected that that was the case. There's probably something to that, but to hear a person like you say it, it makes me much happier. Like, okay, maybe I'm on the right track. Like, what what gives you this inclination and why did you want to write about this?
>> Yeah. Um I'm not surprised to say so because that you sort of feel that that makes sense because uh in a sense is what we're used to right in our everyday life. We uh interact with persons and persons are the way they interact with us and them their relations and stuff.
We always see things from our own perspective. Then somehow science physics in particular seemed to be telling us okay no no yes okay there is all this perspective but there is an objective fixed reality down there we can look at it from the outside is made by little things each one which its own properties except that uh in the evolution of
physics itself in relative recent time the last century with quantum mechanics this idea of an objective reality doesn't work much. And so in a sense, we're going back to a more intuitive picture of the world. The very idea of an objective reality down there might be wrong. In fact, I think it's wrong. And I think that's what quantum mechanics is telling us.
>> So when you say objective reality, meaning the reality that we're seeing and experiencing, that this is just a tiny fraction of what's real or that we're getting a distorted perception of what's real? um we are getting a perception a perspective on what is real. I mean I see you you're real of course I see this pen this pen is real of course I'm not denying that there is some reality but the way you see the pen is different from mine of course just because you see it from the other side so you have a perspective perspective and uh the
question is do all do all this perspective match perfectly into a unique objective reality of the pen [snorts] and I think quantum mechanics telling us no uh reality is this ensemble of perspectives so the properties of the pen where it is its color how long it is. All all all the property of the pen are not really properties of the pen.
It's how the pen looks to you, how the pen looks to me. Not just you and me as human beings. How the pen clashes another pen, how it affects another pen. >> Um so we we should understand I think uh reality as this network of interaction, how things look to everything else, which is a more beautiful picture of reality than just you know we being outside and looking from the outside.
We're inside reality. We are part of reality. So what we see is just a part of how things interact with one another is how they interact with us. >> So when when you you're talking about objective reality. So one of the problems that human beings have is our senses and we assume that our senses see everything that's there to be seen. That doesn't really make sense. It seems it
seems like we see and hear and touch and feel everything we need to see to stay alive. Yeah. Uh to some extent our senses are reliable. Of course, right? I see a cup there. If I will bring use a cup, it's >> hot, you put it down, [snorts] >> right? The problem is that if we if we take our senses too literally, too seriously, uh we're wrong. And we know we're wrong. I mean, we so many cases,
uh we find out we're wrong. Um and the reason I love science is when it corrects us in some big way. Think about that. Um, think about the sunset. Sunset is marvelous. You know, you sit by the ocean, you see the sun going down, going down, going down. It's beautiful. The sky becomes dark. So, the sun goes down.
But science has talked to us that's not really what happens. The sun doesn't move. It stays there. It's actually the the the the earth. It's a big rock that is spinning and we are moving out of the light of the sun. And if you see the sun going down, you remember that, you can think about that. You say, "Oh, my senses cheat me in telling me that the sun is moving, but it's not moving. I am moving."
>> So that's a good example in which science has told us that uh things are not exactly like we see. They're in a different manner. >> I've always wondered what's the evolutionary benefit of the beauty of sunsets. Why are they so beautiful? Like what is it about it that's so inspiring and so magnificent and some it does something to people? It does something.
It makes you feel different. When the sun rises in the morning, you feel different. It it has an effect on you. And I've always wondered like what what is the purpose of that? Like why does that exist? It like food tastes great because it's nutritious. You eat an orange, it's delicious because it's really good for you.
>> Yeah. There's there seems to be something to beauty, especially natural beauty, like mountains. Like when I look at them, I'm like, why is it so good to look at these? Why does it feel so good? Like there's something to it. There's some weirdness that you can't just you can't just chalk off to measurement.
There's there's something going on. >> That's a great question. I I I love this question. Um yes. Uh I mean of course sunset and sunrises are crucial for us because uh we're design we have been designed by evolution through through millennia hundreds of millennia thousand of millennia uh to you know sleep in the night and and go around in in in in the day which is just what our speeches do
other other cats do the opposite um so they are certainly important for us um but our relation with the world and I think you're putting your finger in it is not It's not about knowledge about what to do. It's always emotional, right? I mean, food is raises emotion. Um, we like it. Um, so I don't know exactly where the emotion of sunset and sunrise come from. But certainly the fact we
have it um points to the fact that if we have to understand ourself and our relation with the world, we have to look at our emotions a lot. Not just what we know, what we don't know. uh we have an emotional relation among ourselves and uh with things in the world with mountains with animals with wild animals with little things and and and one another and then the rational part
comes on top of it to say oh let's correct it let's do it a little bit better it uses I'm not denying the utility of the rational part but is an addendum to what we are >> an addendum to what we are the the really weird weird thing for people that are studying the world must have been the understanding of quantum physics.
>> Yes, >> that must have thrown the whole thing into a giant tizzy because now you're like, okay, well, at the lowest level, observable level, the smallest observable level of reality, you have magic. >> That's exactly the point. Somehow physics was uh supposed to be the the path to objectivity, right? Physics is what guarantees that all right we're emotions perspective my view your view
but down there there's physics the world is just simple down there there's stuff there are atoms moving around there forces and that's it >> and then uh last century during the 20th century uh the physicist discovered that no no that's not the case the wall down there is even more perspectival more complicated ated um than in our everyday life. It really was really hard. I mean the the physicists
were very confused at the beginning of the century because they were making all this measurement on atoms on radiation you know electrons and stuff and trying to make sense of it and they couldn't they couldn't they couldn't and then at some point um I think it was Neils bore Danish first one who said well we have to change the metaphysics here it's not just a issue about writing the right equation the the right force we have to change the way we think about the world
once again okay like when we thought the earth move or um when we when we realize the fields electric fields we change the way profoundly we think about reality and quantum mechanics is one of these jumps now Joe we are still debating about us right physicists are debating about themselves and philosophers are debating what the hell have we understood with
quantum mechanics quantum mechanics telling us the world is not what we thought it is And uh there's a conversation that's going on a debate sometimes furious and somebody says oh you know there is this immense wave function of the universe other universe and stuff like that um trying to hang on on the existence of something absolutely objective down there trying to multiply reality to make
it to make it objective but I think it's this dream of an absolute objectivity which is a mistake >> the dream of an absolute objectivity is a mistake. That's really fascinating.
When they first started understanding that observing quantum interactions changes them. >> Yeah. >> What what was what how long did it take for them to even accept that? Like how many times did they have to run those experiments with particles and waves with observers versus not before they said, "Okay, something's going on here." Yeah. Or it seems that that we when we watch things it has an effect on them.